SiIvaGunner Wiki:Moot/Log July 2022
hey all, wont stick around but glad to see everyone still working on the wiki even though i stopped for a while
We'll wait a couple minutes for people to filter in, and then we'll get started with the first topic
Apparently yes. So we’ll wait for people to come in and try and keep things off on topic?
Currently we have two things on the docket, but after we discuss those people are free to bring up any further points and proposals they have
The only reason why I could even make it to this moot is because I couldn’t sleep last night
Good question! Topics are posted here: SiIvaGunner Wiki:Moot#Current Moot Topics
Posting the topics for this moot in here for convenience:
* Ironwestie - Criteria for series navboxes - e.g. should only be for actual game franchines, well-known VGM composers, and actual SiIvaGunner playlists; should have >= 5 entries in them
- Ironwestie - List of rips referencing YouTubers
Posting the topics for this moot in here for convenience:
* Ironwestie - Criteria for series navboxes - e.g. should only be for actual game franchines, well-known VGM composers, and actual SiIvaGunner playlists; should have >= 5 entries in them
- Ironwestie - List of rips referencing YouTubers
this time actually works great for me
Please take this event seriously, or else we'll have to take action in order to keep the event organized
Currently there are no set criteria for series navboxes (Category:Series navboxes). The category of thing for a "series" is unclear. We have video game companies, video game composers, and even entire platforms (e.g. Newgrounds)
I'd like to propose that we set the following rules for series navboxes:
- The number of links in the navboxes must be at least 5, but no more than 30
- We should not have navboxes within other navboxes
- The "series" must be one of: actual game franchines, well-known VGM composers, and actual SiIvaGunner playlists / categories
I’m not sure about the “no more than 30 links” part but I agree that a minimum of 5 might be a good idea
so here are my opinions on each:
- 5 seems like a good minimum, but I don't know if we should set a maximum.
- i agree with this one
- this one makes sense, but might need more discussion. where do we draw the line between games/series
Which current navbars does point 3 get rid of?
Do we have any examples of navboxes within navboxes?
Do we have any examples of navboxes within navboxes?
I proposed a maximum because I think otherwise the category is too large. 30 might be too small, though
you know what i want to bring up something here actually
It might be nice to externally keep track of series with fewer than 5?
iirc Notcreepypasta does that on his own pages edit: its actually Notcreepypasta
IMO a nav box should bring the viewer to literally everything related to the topic at hand so I don’t agree with a hard cap on links (esp if they can lead to issues and arguments over which links get trimmed)
Although I do believe that the second rule regarding navboxes inside navboxes would help keep the navboxes a lot cleaner, if you think about it those franchises are related to the Mario series As an example, if Donkey Kong was just a singular game, it would have been listed on the navbox
I think this navbox is worth discussing about, since it's going over a genre rather then an actual franchise.
{{Navbox series Mystery Dungeon}}
I think this navbox is worth discussing about, since it's going over a genre rather then an actual franchise.
{{Navbox series Mystery Dungeon}}
I think we should decide on some basic rules for series navboxes before we dive into specific ones
Like, why is Crypt of the Necrodancer in here?
Does it actually have anything to do with the Spike Chunsoft Mystery Dungeon series though
Navid, I think for DK we would try to do some kind of "see also"
I agree with this update A see also section at the bottom of the navbox would both look cleaner and also be really useful
Does it actually have anything to do with the Spike Chunsoft Mystery Dungeon series though
I think we should decide on some basic rules for series navboxes before we dive into specific ones
I agree with this update A see also section at the bottom of the navbox would both look cleaner and also be really useful
The "series" must be one of: actual game franchines, well-known VGM composers, and actual SiIvaGunner playlists / categories
Hmm. How do we define “well known” though? Should there be a minimum amount of credits across multiple series/games to determine “notability”?
A navigation box is a template that is put on a page to help readers navigate through related content
honestly i don't think VGM composers necessarily need a navbox?
Oh I thought they were talking about video game companies, like we already have Category:Series navboxes#By companies
Iirc pretty much every game/thing ends up with its own playlist anyways so trying to use that as a determination of wether we should have a navbox isn’t helpful. The minimum links part should be covering that imo
Pad, are you talking about the last point ("actual SiIvaGunner playlists / categories")?
pokemonfreak777, I think that is a good point. We don't necessarily need video game music composers on there
pokemonfreak777, I think that is a good point. We don't necessarily need video game music composers on there
like i think i get the idea behind it (to consolidate all of the small works of a composer?) but a list like the contributor lists would work as well
For that I was just talking about the "Fan content" section of the current list
In that case I feel like we should try and merge its contents into other navboxes whenever possible, because it doesn’t really matter rn to the viewer
Hmm, okay. Let's resolve the composer thing. Any strong feelings towards keeping composers?
I would prolly propose an exemption to the “minimum links” rule for the three “official” fan games though
Hmm, okay. Let's resolve the composer thing. Any strong feelings towards keeping composers?
I don’t personally care, and I don’t think people are here to find specific composers to begin with
Hmm, okay. Let's resolve the composer thing. Any strong feelings towards keeping composers?
i say no composers. if we want to keep/consolidate them, change it to a list page
There are not that many composers who compose for video game to have their own category The only ones that come in my mind are Koji Kondo and Hideki Naganuma, and that's basically it for me
We can chuck them in a list page imo
I'm mixed on scrapping composer navboxes myself.
About fan content- yeah I think it might be wise to dissolve it into larger navboxes
I have a bit of soft spot for the Fake games, Unlicensed / Fan Games and Non-Games Playlists navboxess
For me, a series navbox should at base, contain the following:
- Games part of the main series
- Games part of spin-off series
- Frequently ripped track pages
- Characters that have been used in SiIva lore (i.e. the CCC or KFAD)
- Remasters and remakes should be on them, but placed next to the respective game in brackets
They are hella big, but I think they are a large part of SiIvaGunner as a channel that pretends to have VGM musics
Spotty, let's resolve the "what should have a navbox" question before we do "What should a navbox have in it"
For me, a series navbox should at base, contain the following:
- Games part of the main series
- Games part of spin-off series
- Frequently ripped track pages
- Characters that have been used in SiIva lore (i.e. the CCC or KFAD)
- Remasters and remakes should be on them, but placed next to the respective game in brackets
Spotty, let's resolve the "what should have a navbox" question before we do "What should a navbox have in it"
I think one thing that needs discussing is if company navboxes should be kept or not.
But is anyone really ever going to click from “Newer Super Mario Bros. DS” to “Sonic Inflation 2: Battle”
I have a bit of soft spot for the Fake games, Unlicensed / Fan Games and Non-Games Playlists navboxess
about these navboxes, i have no real issues with keeping them. however they need reorganizing for legibility
They are hella big, but I think they are a large part of SiIvaGunner as a channel that pretends to have VGM musics
I also agree with having them They make the channel somewhat special and give it character, and show that it's not just a VGM uploading machine
about these navboxes, i have no real issues with keeping them. however they need reorganizing for legibility
I think "what should have a navbox" depends on "what should a navbox have in it"
I don't have a specific example, but you could imagine that if we decide that a navbox can't contain certain links that would be useful for (eg) composers, then we would not have navboxes for composers
Wasn’t the navbox being discussed rn the “Unlicensed/Fan games” one and not the “fake games” one
let's resolve the "fan content" section of the current list
Summary: Series navboxes should now meet all of the following criteria:
- The number of links in the navboxes must be at least 5
- We should not have navboxes within other navboxes
- The "series" must be one of: actual game franchises, actual SiIvaGunner playlists / categories (e.g. "Fake games, Non-Game Playlists, and Unlicensed / Fan Games)
=====
(I think I need to think more on 2,3. Do we have a general list of abstract usecases of navboxes? Like: they let me go to related pages I know about quickly, and they let me see relevant pages I might not have known about without having to go to a category page)
Regarding 3, does that mean that we will no longer have the company navboxes such as Valve or PopCap or EpicGames or do those not count as series navboxes?
I think most people agree with everything that's already included in that selection iron, the main points of contention imo is what we do with composer and company navboxes.
Pokemonfreak, I would count everything that is currently in this list under "By franchises"
Meaning we would remove everything from "By companies" to "Composers" in Category:Series navboxes
Regarding company navboxes, the main reason keeping them to me is that some companies only have small franchises that never reach five games.
Pokemonfreak, I would count everything that is currently in this list under "By franchises"
basically i'm looking at the mario navbox and wondering if we would need to split it (and other similar examples) into multiple navboxes
cuz an argument can be made that some of the side mario games are franchises in their own right
Mm, I totally get that. I think that is a very complex discussion that we should discuss at a later date, though
Yeah, I think discussion on splitting certain navboxes should be had some other time.
Because as Spotty also mentioned, some of them don't have enough games to get their own navbox
I think Marvel can go because it's not related to itself enough; not sure about Homestuck
i think for companies, we can do the following:
- if a game or games under that company meets the threshold for a navbox, make a navbox for them.
- if none of the games meet the threshold, we can make a list page for the company instead.
mm, yeah let's decide on companies first. I feel like the other categories are pretty navbox-specific
i think for companies, we can do the following:
- if a game or games under that company meets the threshold for a navbox, make a navbox for them.
- if none of the games meet the threshold, we can make a list page for the company instead.
We can also put a see also for the game navboxes at the bottom of the company navbox like it was suggested at the beginning of the meeting
We can also put a see also for the game navboxes at the bottom of the company navbox like it was suggested at the beginning of the meeting
'cause right now you could ~~use ~~make any company who has made more than 5 games into a navbox
if we go strictly with 5 game minimum, i think the wayforward navbox has shantae at 5 games?
oh, are you saying that we should remove all of the companies navboxes and either replace them with individual games navbox or a list?
im saying that for companies with any games that have 5+ entries (the current threshold) should have separate navboxes for those games instead of grouped under the company (so a shantae navbox for example)
the second point is to cover the cases where the company has a bunch of games under 5 entries but is still significant enough to warrant something
the second point is to cover the cases where the company has a bunch of games under 5 entries but is still significant enough to warrant something
So if one of those games gets a 5th rip, then at that time we would delete the company's navbox?
I think a playlist section by consoles would be an element that I think would be essential for the site
So if one of those games gets a 5th rip, then at that time we would delete the company's navbox?
im saying that for companies with any games that have 5+ entries (the current threshold) should have separate navboxes for those games instead of grouped under the company (so a shantae navbox for example)
How about we allow companies in general and delete companies on a case-by-case basis
How about we allow companies in general and delete companies on a case-by-case basis
I feel like making it case by case would go against the idea of having criteria for navboxes in the first place.
I feel like making it case by case would go against the idea of having criteria for navboxes in the first place.
We can have some general criteria, plus some stuff to be decided on a case-by-case basis
We can have some general criteria, plus some stuff to be decided on a case-by-case basis
An example of where you might want a case-by-case basis: For the 5 minimum limit (this was point 1, so not quite what we're talking about but just an example I thought of first), you might imagine: If there's a sequence of navbox but the next logical item in the sequence doesn't have 5 rips then it can have its own navbox
I think what Miles means is: What are some general criteria for what companies should be kept?
I'm not arguing to remove all companies, I'm trying to figure out what companies need a navbox
basically, i'm of the opinion that we don't need company navboxes. either convert any games that have enough for a navbox or make a list consolidating related games (or both)
like I wouldn't want all video game companies ever to receive a navbox
like I wouldn't want all video game companies ever to receive a navbox
Can't we use the same logic that we use for video game navboxes here? 5 or more games ripped on the channel
nice, I don't think there are any video game companies related to SiIvaGunner. like SiIvaGunner doesn't partner with any video game companies
Maybe we should look at all of the company navboxes we have at the moment individually and quickly discuss if they're worth having them. That might help us with coming up with a criteria.
Also, I realize that we're almost an hour and a half into the Moot, so I don't want this to drag on for too long
I'm really sorry but I have to leave the meeting, as it's basically morning where I am and I have to get up in a couple of hours
5th Cell has two series in it: Drawn to Life and Scribblenauts. Former has three games while the latter has four.
Let's take the first one in the list, 5th cell
no games over 5, so it would fall under option 2 (make a list if needed - my idea, or see also on the game categories - navid's idea)
half life has > 5, so make a half life navbox (option 1) everything else seems under 5 so either get rid of it entirely or go with option 2 for the rest
by removing the navbox, we would lose this grouping of multiple game franchises, related channel events, and an album
i think a list page would accomplish the same thing the navbox does at the moment?
True, pokemonfreak. You could make this argument for a lot of navboxes
in a sense yeah. some of our current navboxes for games could probably be converted to lists as well
(Although it's technical six because it has a fake game, but that's besides the point)
I think Doom should be split off into its own navbox and the id one can be removed.
remember, we're doing this case-by-case thing so we can figure out why we would keep a company navbox
I think Rare should be kept. it has frequently ripped tracks and many playlists included
I agree with your point Arthur, but it's worth pointing out that the frequently ripped tracks in question are from Banjo-Kazooie and DK64. The former has enough games to have it's own navbox now, and the second is already part of the Donkey Kong navbox.
DK has >5 so DK navbox (already exists) Banjo has >5 so Banjo navbox everything else in a list or removed
What's the easiest way of getting the list of all of a company's games relevant to SiIlvagunner, assuming we get rid of its navbox and do not convert it into a list?
You have a list of all of the company's games and look on the wiki whether SiIvaGunner has ripped those games
You have a list of all of the company's games and look on the wiki whether SiIvaGunner has ripped those games
i would guess memes/lore pages if related to siivagunner and what ironwestie said if ripped by siivagunner
What's the easiest way of getting the list of all of a company's games relevant to SiIlvagunner, assuming we get rid of its navbox and do not convert it into a list?
I mean, this kinda has a list like that Category:Series navboxes#By franchises
Sure, but if we remove a navbox for a game because it has too few rips then we would miss that one
so aside from the Valve template having events, many franchises, and an album, we couldn't find a reason for keeping any company navboxes?
In general, keeping the navbox for any company makes it easier to get a list of all games (+ events + whatever else I'm missing) from that company relevant to SiIvagunner (so you don't have to compile it for yourself externally). So we'd want to keep it if people want to do this enough.
tbh we can convert the entire "by company" navbox section into a list by company page (similar to the list of songs featured in rips)
again, nice, we're trying to figure out criteria for why we would keep specific a company's navbox
another navbox that has some big stuff in it is Nicalis, with a channel event and KFAD characters (contestant + 2 minor ones)
no games >5 so list page
- edit: can argue for cave story navbox if threshold includes "related elements" of a game series (like frequently ripped tracks)
Arthur, you could pull all of the characters and event page into a navbox about Cave Story
tbh I feel like we could get away with turning the Nicalis navbox into a Cave Story one. It's only one game plus a 3d remake and a fake game, but it's hard to deny that the game has had a large presence on the channel.
Tangentially relevant: I think it should be impossible for someone to think "I have found a list of all rips relevant to this company" and be wrong
First, one thing I would be happy with is if we convert all company navbars to lists
As in, I don't care about the navbar itself -- I just want an easy way to get everything relevant to Company X in general
I'm also happy for not all companies to get lists -- if a company has only 1 rip and no events, then at the very least if we implemented the policy that companies with only 1 relevant page don't get lists then we could deduce that (I'm not suggesting we implement this)
But what I don't want to happen is that some companies with let's say a large number of games (some with more than 5 rips, some with less) to not have a list due to having a game with more than 5 rips, because then you might go look at the list of game navboxes by franchise and think you found them all
Summary: We are going to:
- Remove the composers series navboxes
Remove the companies series navboxes with the possible exception of Valve
Replace the companies series navboxes with lists If we vote Support for 2, we will then discuss (likely next meeting) about converting these navboxes lists and what that means exactly
If 2 is passed, we will not create lists at the moment (as we still need to discuss what the lists' format is exactly), but we will discuss it at the next meeting
Summary: We are going to:
- Remove the composers series navboxes
Remove the companies series navboxes with the possible exception of Valve
Replace the companies series navboxes with lists If we vote Support for 2, we will then discuss (likely next meeting) about converting these navboxes lists and what that means exactly
Im not awarr what a navboxes
If 2 is passed, we will not create lists at the moment (as we still need to discuss what the lists' format is exactly), but we will discuss it at the next meeting
pokemonfreak777 , would you mind presenting your idea for the lists at the next meeting?
Okay, that is 8-0 - 
Support
pokemonfreak777 , would you mind presenting your idea for the lists at the next meeting?
So, this lists topic will be next meeting, as well as the List of YouTubers page proposal that was also in the docket
A log of this moot will be posted to the wiki, and so will a summary of what we decided and talked about