SiIvaGunner Wiki:Moot/Log 2025 May 03
The direction of today's moot will be decided depending on whether overcast07 is able to make it. I'll wait five minutes for folks to filter in
there were a few things i wanted to tweak in my proposal text so if i could get 5 minutes if overcast isnt here id appreciate it 😅
there were a few things i wanted to tweak in my proposal text so if i could get 5 minutes if overcast isnt here id appreciate it 😅
Please take a look at the current moot topics while we wait: SiIvaGunner Wiki:Moot#Current Moot Topics
Copied for the log:
Currently, we mainly document external album releases of SiIvaGunner rips using "external links" sections, and projects like GANGNAMCORE and Secret SiIva are mentioned on a large number of pages without explanation of what they are. To make it easier to navigate and explain this information, we should create a "List of third-party albums" and "Category:Rips included on third-party albums" (the category may also contain tracks), with "third-party" meaning "anything other than official SiIvaGunner media" and "album" meaning "something containing at least one lossless audio track". The list should include collaborative albums (those where at least 5 different SiIvaGunner contributors' rips are present), solo albums (those which primarily consist of a single contributor's rips), other SiIvaGunner rip compilations (other albums which consist entirely of SiIvaGunner rips) and any other albums that contain SiIvaGunner rips (for which each relevant track should be listed on the page). Furthermore, Category:Non-SiIvaGunner album releases should be renamed to "Category:Tracks from third-party sources" to avoid ambiguity, since its current name could be mistaken to refer to the new category being proposed. (The final proposed page names can be different if better ones are suggested during discussion.)
We should create a "list of characters" which includes all characters who have made speaking or cameo appearances in SiIvaGunner story content (including individual videos that are not connected to the main SiIvaGunner lore). The list should be in the form of a sortable table with the columns "Name", "Origin", "First appearance", "Date [of first appearance]" and "Notes", and should link to other articles that have more information about particular characters.
To organize various trivia, a "List of records" should be created to list the most-viewed videos, the longest video titles, and so on. The information of User:Pokemonfreak777/List of rips with video titles that are so long they may get cut off by YouTube's 100-character limi should be included in some form.
All of the above paragraphs are three separate proposals by Overcast. Here is Mick's proposal:
Template:MemeNav is not efficient in its current form, sort it by year.
overcast07 , final call?
The first proposal is to basically create a page where we put basic general information about non-official albums, as well as a list of those albums. We currently have a situation where "Secret SiIva" and "Gangnamcore" are each mentioned on lots of pages, but we never define them and there is no organization of the information other than those individual bullet points/references on rip articles
The definitions in the proposal related to what "third-party albums" are and what sections should be on the list are supposed to just guide the initial creation and can be changed in the future if we find they aren't actually suitable.
overcast07 Anything further to add before we discuss?
[For the log: These are links to messages in joke-discussion and wiki-discussion, two channels in the SiIvaGunner Wiki Discord]
didnt we vote against doing this on a smaller scale already? iirc we voted no to this for the christmas comeback crisis unofficial albums and im not sure how this is different
They wouldn't be getting individual pages. We would just be using this page to list what albums exist and explain some of the different types of albums
didnt we vote against doing this on a smaller scale already? iirc we voted no to this for the christmas comeback crisis unofficial albums and im not sure how this is different
Correct. From SiIvaGunner Wiki:Moot/2024 February 03:
We voted not to create articles for unofficial Christmas Comeback Crisis albums by dante, Madinstance, and Aps17. (1-2-5)
What would be the criteria towards being included on the page as an unofficial album
i think documenting secret siiva, gangnamcore and personal albums in this way is stepping into extra-channel content in a way that doesn't really belong on the wiki. the wiki has been used for official siivagunner media (be it rips or albums or youtube channels etc), and secret siiva is something that is deliberately omitted from official outlets.
i don't have an issue with how gangnamcore and personal albums are noted on the wiki, via the external links section, but i also informally brought up a way that secret siiva could be better documented.
i guess like trivia "this rip was made for x for secret siiva (link to track)" would be fine
the actual explanation for what secret siiva is could go on the glossary of terms list, i feel like people don't often think about that but a lot of useful info that is too tangential to be on the wiki proper could go there
at first i didnt really get why this needs a category until i realized it helps with searching for losslesses not on released siiva albums
What would be the criteria towards being included on the page as an unofficial album
It's in the proposal text
Currently, we mainly document external album releases of SiIvaGunner rips using "external links" sections, and projects like GANGNAMCORE and Secret SiIva are mentioned on a large number of pages without explanation of what they are.
To make it easier to navigate and explain this information, we should create a "List of third-party albums" and "Category:Rips included on third-party albums" (the category may also contain tracks), with "third-party" meaning "anything other than official SiIvaGunner media" and "album" meaning "something containing at least one lossless audio track".
The list should include collaborative albums (those where at least 5 different SiIvaGunner contributors' rips are present), solo albums (those which primarily consist of a single contributor's rips), other SiIvaGunner rip compilations (other albums which consist entirely of SiIvaGunner rips) and any other albums that contain SiIvaGunner rips (for which each relevant track should be listed on the page).
Furthermore, Category:Non-SiIvaGunner album releases should be renamed to "Category:Tracks from third-party sources" to avoid ambiguity, since its current name could be mistaken to refer to the new category being proposed. (The final proposed page names can be different if better ones are suggested during discussion.)
(added line breaks to make it more readable)
the trivia point explanation could also be used for stuff like the birthday albums, just to provide a short context
i think documenting secret siiva, gangnamcore and personal albums in this way is stepping into extra-channel content in a way that doesn't really belong on the wiki. the wiki has been used for official siivagunner media (be it rips or albums or youtube channels etc), and secret siiva is something that is deliberately omitted from official outlets.
i don't have an issue with how gangnamcore and personal albums are noted on the wiki, via the external links section, but i also informally brought up a way that secret siiva could be better documented.
i guess like trivia "this rip was made for x for secret siiva (link to track)" would be fine
the actual explanation for what secret siiva is could go on the glossary of terms list, i feel like people don't often think about that but a lot of useful info that is too tangential to be on the wiki proper could go there
having Secret SiIva be a redirect to the glossary section and having the glossary link to the userpage catalogs might be an alright workaround? personally im indifferent
i also wonder about ripper albums, a lot of them mix siivagunner rips with fanchannel rips and even some unreleased rips
would we be documenting all of those? or just put the rips that released on siivagunner under the category
having Secret SiIva be a redirect to the glossary section and having the glossary link to the userpage catalogs might be an alright workaround? personally im indifferent
It would definitely be an option, but I don't really think it would have much benefit to readers to put the explanation only on there
Correct. From SiIvaGunner Wiki:Moot/2024 February 03:
We voted not to create articles for unofficial Christmas Comeback Crisis albums by dante, Madinstance, and Aps17. (1-2-5)
quoting myself from the log
i kinda view these albums similar to how i view the secret siiva and personal contributor albums. while some content on these albums eventually makes it to the main channel i dont really feel like they are officially part of the channel, so they shouldnt get pages
this reasoning is also why im against making an official page/category listing these albums. if anyone really wants a list they can be done unofficially under a user subpage (and there are already several)
would we be documenting all of those? or just put the rips that released on siivagunner under the category
Initially, based on the text of the proposal, we would not be listing any of the tracks on the albums except for the ones in the "any other albums that contain SiIvaGunner rips" section
And in that section that lists the siiva rips each uses it'd only list those of course
There have been various official albums that include fan channel rips, but those don't really happen these days
quoting myself from the log
i kinda view these albums similar to how i view the secret siiva and personal contributor albums. while some content on these albums eventually makes it to the main channel i dont really feel like they are officially part of the channel, so they shouldnt get pages
this reasoning is also why im against making an official page/category listing these albums. if anyone really wants a list they can be done unofficially under a user subpage (and there are already several)
I mean it's explicitly saying they're third-party albums and making a basic list of them rather than giving a page to any of them in particular, to aid in this purpose
Currently, we mainly document external album releases of SiIvaGunner rips using "external links" sections, and projects like GANGNAMCORE and Secret SiIva are mentioned on a large number of pages without explanation of what they are
If we don't end up having a list, the category would still be useful for keeping track of all of the pages that (could) have bullet points linking to the albums in question (we could just put all of the information on the category page, if we wanted)
I mean it's explicitly saying they're third-party albums and making a basic list of them rather than giving a page to any of them in particular, to aid in this purpose
Currently, we mainly document external album releases of SiIvaGunner rips using "external links" sections, and projects like GANGNAMCORE and Secret SiIva are mentioned on a large number of pages without explanation of what they are
And it's focused on and based on entirely the siiva rips that are contained within those albums
I remember in the beforetimes of the wiki we didn't limit the "releases" section of the infobox to Official SilvaGunner Inc. Content™️ (unofficial albums never had separate album pages, but it was fine to link bandcamp or even soundcloud releases there) and i kinda wish that could be reinstated because making secret siiva albums more visible than official ones [they are more visible because the "external links" section is part of the article prose] makes not that much sense in my opionion. I don't think we need to give secret siiva albums full pages, but i think it would be objectively better to treat them like normal releases in the context of the isolated rip article, while just having the album name be a redirect. I think ideally we can still have the categories for third-party albums, but they'll be under "Rips included in third-party albums" instead of "Rips by album". As usual, they won't have full pages and any tracks on the album that don't directly relate to official content will be completely unmentioned. That could possibly be mentioned in the category pages (i.e. "SiIvaGunner rips and tracks released in the third-party album Secret SiIva 17. Tracks exclusive to the album are not covered.") Most categories are just for shit we made up as a wiki to aid in documentation, so I think it's fair.
I mean it's explicitly saying they're third-party albums and making a basic list of them rather than giving a page to any of them in particular, to aid in this purpose
Currently, we mainly document external album releases of SiIvaGunner rips using "external links" sections, and projects like GANGNAMCORE and Secret SiIva are mentioned on a large number of pages without explanation of what they are
i guess i would rather have something akin to this for the albums if we really want a list for this User:Minindo/List of SiIvaGunner fan channels again i dont want this on the mainspace because its not official and not everything in those albums gets to siiva
i guess i would rather have something akin to this for the albums if we really want a list for this User:Minindo/List of SiIvaGunner fan channels again i dont want this on the mainspace because its not official and not everything in those albums gets to siiva
The list would be the only new article in the article namespace, but as aforementioned we can combine it with the category page if we want, so we can technically have no new articles
The list would be the only new article in the article namespace, but as aforementioned we can combine it with the category page if we want, so we can technically have no new articles
If we are not doing an article, I do not think having a category would be any better.
I see third-party album releases as fan media. It's okay to document those in trivia on individual pages, but the albums aren't official enough to merit full pages (EDIT: a full "List of third-party albums" page) and a category
These are currently listed in "External links" sections on most rips where it applies, and that's good and should continue to happen, because those are external releases of these SiIvaGunner rips.
The proposal is proposing a way to keep track of these instances via a category and a list.
The list isn't redundant to the category because it can distinguish between collaborative albums/solo albums/other SiIvaGunner rip compilations/any other albums that contain SiIvaGunner rips (see proposal)
so our current options are (in order of smallest to largest changes):
- Do Nothing
- Add a Glossary term for Secret Siiva (and maybe other albums)
- Add only a category or only a page for third party albums
- Add a page and category for third party albums (overcast's proposal)
- Document third party albums (nobody wants this im pretty sure)
am I missing any?
so our current options are (in order of smallest to largest changes):
- Do Nothing
- Add a Glossary term for Secret Siiva (and maybe other albums)
- Add only a category or only a page for third party albums
- Add a page and category for third party albums (overcast's proposal)
- Document third party albums (nobody wants this im pretty sure)
am I missing any?
3 would be category only (not page only), before 4 being page+category, that was expressed in the proposal
so our current options are (in order of smallest to largest changes):
- Do Nothing
- Add a Glossary term for Secret Siiva (and maybe other albums)
- Add only a category or only a page for third party albums
- Add a page and category for third party albums (overcast's proposal)
- Document third party albums (nobody wants this im pretty sure)
am I missing any?
The vast majority of pages/categories are about individual media released by SiIvaGunner or individual aspects of those media, but this would be modeled more on the contributor categories (some of which are based entirely on third-party sources)
Normally playlists are only associated with one particular contributor, and they already have an elaborate tracking system that we frequently make use of (Aidan Zamboni's spreadsheet), so there would be less practical benefit to creating a list of contributor playlists (although I think it could be justified too). In that case it would not actually introduce any new information to the wiki, just make it easier to organize
I don't see what is stopping someone from making a page in their userspace with this information.
It would arguably fit better than creating a category and a page (EDIT: in the main name space)
There is no practical benefit to deliberately hiding this information when it is already scattered across hundreds of articles
Nothing is stopping anyone from doing it on their userpage, but this being a mainspace page/category would allow for pages that do this to actually link to an explanation
We currently have a situation where "Secret SiIva" and "Gangnamcore" are each mentioned on lots of pages, but we never define them and there is no organization of the information other than those individual bullet points/references on rip articles
unless we are gonna have official rip pages link to someone's user page then theres no point in the user page
I don't believe creating the list or the category would change the fact that they are still considered unofficial media. Creating subcategories of Category:Images doesn't change the status of whether the images are official media or not
i support the list page, i hope the category is a second vote though cuz i hope it doesnt bring it down with it.
sidenote i also like circun's thought that trivia could have more context but thats just something people can do already I Think and just needs to be done/encouraged more
I don't believe creating the list or the category would change the fact that they are still considered unofficial media. Creating subcategories of Category:Images doesn't change the status of whether the images are official media or not
This is what I am concerned about, actually. The SiIvaGunner Wiki is only about official SiIvaGunner content. We should not start changing our scope and document third-party albums simply because they contain SiIvaGunner rips
To clarify, I'm still talking about "List of third party albums", not individual album pages
if the intent is explanation, then a glossary entry would suffice (and would be as "official" im willing to go with this). again the list should not be on the mainspace because its not official
would we create a section in the glossary to conglomerate all of the relevant 3rd party albums?
the moot pitch for the glossary would only be for secret siiva and it would be "articles can hyperlink secret siiva to glossary/#secret siiva" right because i dont see the point in glossary entries for anything else besides gangnamcore maybe
This is what I am concerned about, actually. The SiIvaGunner Wiki is only about official SiIvaGunner content. We should not start changing our scope and document third-party albums simply because they contain SiIvaGunner rips
I understand the aversion to doing this, but they are already being used as sources, so I don't really see this as having a different practical purpose from e.g. corralling a bunch of SoundCloud links that someone posted. If it would actually be perfectly within policy to create the entire list and split it by contributor category, why would it not be within policy to put it in one specific page?
would we create a section in the glossary to conglomerate all of the relevant 3rd party albums?
the way i see it "gangnamcore" and "secret siiva" (which are the biggest examples) would get entries on the glossary explaining what they are and that would be it
I think there's some confusion here. This would not be like the old list of fanchannels where stuff is included indiscriminately.
It would be like if we had a page called "List of crossovers with fan-channels" (which we sort of do, since "List of references to YouTubers/Other" has a section explicitly covering fanchannels, and the two most prominent fanchannels with the most crossover have their own articles)
If we really wanted we could put the page in the SiIvaGunner Wiki namespace (which is where the glossary is, as well as a few other pages that only exist for logistical purposes)
I understand the aversion to doing this, but they are already being used as sources, so I don't really see this as having a different practical purpose from e.g. corralling a bunch of SoundCloud links that someone posted. If it would actually be perfectly within policy to create the entire list and split it by contributor category, why would it not be within policy to put it in one specific page?
The difference is that a page or a category would be stepping into legitimizing fan media. I think having hundreds of trivia points about Secret SiIva is its own weird situation that I'm not 100% fond of having, but I'm willing to let trivia act as a sort of "Fun facts" bit and mention this bit of fan media.
they arent listed as trivia points atm; theyre listed as external links which fits better
they arent listed as trivia points atm; theyre listed as external links which fits better
The mentions being listed under "External links" is more okay to me, since it implies that the albums are "outside the wiki".
so our current options are (in order of smallest to largest changes):
- Do Nothing
- Add a Glossary term for Secret Siiva (and maybe other albums)
- Add only a category or only a page for third party albums
- Add a page and category for third party albums (overcast's proposal)
- Document third party albums (nobody wants this im pretty sure)
am I missing any?
I would be okay with a glossary section for notable third-party albums (#2) out of the options listed here.
The difference is that a page or a category would be stepping into legitimizing fan media. I think having hundreds of trivia points about Secret SiIva is its own weird situation that I'm not 100% fond of having, but I'm willing to let trivia act as a sort of "Fun facts" bit and mention this bit of fan media.
I don't think it legitimizes them because we control whether things are described as being official or not. There isn't any technical distinction between this category and any other category containing images, but its description makes it clear that they are not from official media Category:Supplementary images
I don't think it legitimizes them because we control whether things are described as being official or not. There isn't any technical distinction between this category and any other category containing images, but its description makes it clear that they are not from official media Category:Supplementary images
In your opinion, would it be okay to have the category if it only contained articles with external links to third-party albums? This would fulfil the organizational purpose while also making it clear that the purpose isn't to document the albums, since the inclusion would be dependent solely on the content of the articles
No, I wouldn't be comfortable with a category page. Again, it's documenting unofficial media with a dedicated category.
With all due respect, overcast, I think we have different views on this, and that's okay.
I linked this specifically as an example of a category for unofficial media that exists for organizational purposes. I don't think creating another one is somehow going to create a slippery slope Category:Supplementary images
Do you think Secret SiIva should be removed from articles it is currently mentioned on? (discounting any compromises that are made to appease editors who want to add trivia)
I propose we split the vote into three: one for the page, one for the category, and one for the glossary idea
I would be fine with that and it would make sense to have the votes in that specific order
Do you think Secret SiIva should be removed from articles it is currently mentioned on? (discounting any compromises that are made to appease editors who want to add trivia)
As with trivia, I'm ambivalent. I understand that people like having it on the wiki, so I'm willing to let it exist on pages
I linked this specifically as an example of a category for unofficial media that exists for organizational purposes. I don't think creating another one is somehow going to create a slippery slope Category:Supplementary images
I don't think this category is a fair comparison since it is still largely made up of things that originate from official SiIva media.
How about this one then lol Category:Screenshots of cited sources
I would be fine with that and it would make sense to have the votes in that specific order
Great. I will write three summaries and send them here for you to confirm before we vote on them
...why is this even a thing?
I mean, would you rather not organize the dozens of images that have already been put into that category?
How about this one then lol Category:Screenshots of cited sources
I think the category is weird bc its saying that being on an unofficial album is notable when it really isnt. having a page lets us know and talk about these 3rd party albums and information is what is needed not categorization
You created this category
I discussed the category's creation in the server. Nobody objected to the existence of this category, but it was renamed following a suggestion to broaden its scope https://discord.com/channels/787504555763826738/787504555801051172/1336041488047407205
I mean, would you rather not organize the dozens of images that have already been put into that category?
would have to deep dive later to be sure but i think all of these would go in supplementary images anyway so idk why the category even exists
Regarding the votes, here is the wording of each vote, in order: First vote:
We will create "List of third-party albums", a list that documents "third-party" albums. "Third party" meaning "anything other than official SiIvaGunner media" and "album" meaning "something containing at least one lossless audio track" The list should include collaborative albums (those where at least 5 different SiIvaGunner contributors' rips are present), solo albums (those which primarily consist of a single contributor's rips), other SiIvaGunner rip compilations (other albums which consist entirely of SiIvaGunner rips) and any other albums that contain SiIvaGunner rips (for which each relevant track should be listed on the page)
Second vote:
We will create "Category:Rips included on third-party albums" (the category may also contain tracks) with the same definition above. If this proposal passes, we will also rename Category:Non-SiIvaGunner album releases to "Category:Tracks from third-party sources" to avoid ambiguity
Third vote:
We will add sections to SiIvaGunner Wiki: Glossary for notable third-party albums, including Secret Silva and Gangnam Core, and allow articles to link to each album's entry (e.g. SiIvaGunner Wiki: Glossary#S for Secret Silva)
Summary: We will create "List of third-party albums", a list that documents "third-party" albums. "Third party" meaning "anything other than official SiIvaGunner media" and "album" meaning "something containing at least one lossless audio track"
The list should include collaborative albums (those where at least 5 different SiIvaGunner contributors' rips are present), solo albums (those which primarily consist of a single contributor's rips), other SiIvaGunner rip compilations (other albums which consist entirely of SiIvaGunner rips) and any other albums that contain SiIvaGunner rips (for which each relevant track should be listed on the page) ====
Result: 8-0-6. The percentage is 8/14, which is 57.14%. This does not meet the two-thirds requirement of moots, so this proposal has been Rejected.
overcast07 , you have the floor for your next proposal:
We should create a "list of characters" which includes all characters who have made speaking or cameo appearances in SiIvaGunner story content (including individual videos that are not connected to the main SiIvaGunner lore). The list should be in the form of a sortable table with the columns "Name", "Origin", "First appearance", "Date [of first appearance]" and "Notes", and should link to other articles that have more information about particular characters.
Summary: We will create "Category:Rips included on third-party albums" (the category may also contain tracks) with the same definition above.
If this proposal passes, we will also rename Category:Non-SiIvaGunner album releases to "Category:Tracks from third-party sources" to avoid ambiguity
I said earlier that I understood it having a greater purpose of locating rips with losslesses that arent on a siiva album but its kinda pointless now with the other one being rejected and idk if this is still too far anyway
Little question about the third vote: Would this allow redirects to be created? (i.e. Secret SiIva --> SiIvaGunner Wiki:Glossary#S)
Little question about the third vote: Would this allow redirects to be created? (i.e. Secret SiIva --> SiIvaGunner Wiki:Glossary#S)
this would only matter for the secret siiva info on the List of contributors page wouldn't it, or are there others besides external links on rips
Little question about the third vote: Would this allow redirects to be created? (i.e. Secret SiIva --> SiIvaGunner Wiki:Glossary#S)
I'm not sure if it requires a moot vote since we already have cross-namespace redirects, but we might as well establish that we can create redirects to the glossary since there aren't any at the moment
is there any precedent for mainspace pages linking to userpages? i've never seen that before and i dont think that should be established right now if it would be new
I'm not sure if it requires a moot vote since we already have cross-namespace redirects, but we might as well establish that we can create redirects to the glossary since there aren't any at the moment
Any other amendments before we vote?
We will add sections to SiIvaGunner Wiki: Glossary for notable third-party albums, including Secret Silva and Gangnamcore, and allow articles to link to each album's entry (e.g. SiIvaGunner Wiki: Glossary#S for Secret Silva) Redirects will also be created for these notable third-party albums (e.g. Secret SiIva --> SiIvaGunner Wiki:Glossary#S)
and the glossary gets to link to the userpage lists right
I never suggested this and I'm not sure if it should be part of the vote. I don't want to hold it up, anyway
Any other amendments before we vote?
We will add sections to SiIvaGunner Wiki: Glossary for notable third-party albums, including Secret Silva and Gangnamcore, and allow articles to link to each album's entry (e.g. SiIvaGunner Wiki: Glossary#S for Secret Silva) Redirects will also be created for these notable third-party albums (e.g. Secret SiIva --> SiIvaGunner Wiki:Glossary#S)
I never suggested this and I'm not sure if it should be part of the vote. I don't want to hold it up, anyway
not trying to hold up the vote but in essence its like linking an external spreadsheet anyway so i dont see an issue doesnt have to be a part of the vote
it's spelled Gangnamcore if you wanna fix that reali quick
Summary: We will add sections to SiIvaGunner Wiki: Glossary for notable third-party albums, including Secret Silva and Gangnamcore, and allow articles to link to each album's entry (e.g. SiIvaGunner Wiki: Glossary#S for Secret Silva)
Redirects will also be created for these notable third-party albums (e.g. Secret SiIva --> SiIvaGunner Wiki:Glossary#S) ====
We have 10 minutes left of our moot time. overcast07 , are you ready to present your next topic?
The proposal was:
We should create a "list of characters" which includes all characters who have made speaking or cameo appearances in SiIvaGunner story content (including individual videos that are not connected to the main SiIvaGunner lore). The list should be in the form of a sortable table with the columns "Name", "Origin", "First appearance", "Date [of first appearance]" and "Notes", and should link to other articles that have more information about particular characters.
We already have a characters navbox, but it is only for characters who have their own individual articles. We also have four lists of characters, but they are only for specific content, and this list would link to sections of those lists as appropriate
List of SiIvaGunner memes would it be a similar format to the list of siivagunner memes page?
The proposal was:
We should create a "list of characters" which includes all characters who have made speaking or cameo appearances in SiIvaGunner story content (including individual videos that are not connected to the main SiIvaGunner lore). The list should be in the form of a sortable table with the columns "Name", "Origin", "First appearance", "Date [of first appearance]" and "Notes", and should link to other articles that have more information about particular characters.
also would this supersede these pages or include them as links? List of minor characters from the King for Another Day Tournament List of minor characters from the King for a Day Tournament List of minor characters from the SilvaGunner Christmas Comeback Crisis List of minor characters from the Spooktacular Halloween Horror Specials
also would this supersede these pages or include them as links? List of minor characters from the King for Another Day Tournament List of minor characters from the King for a Day Tournament List of minor characters from the SilvaGunner Christmas Comeback Crisis List of minor characters from the Spooktacular Halloween Horror Specials
i kinda thought this would only be a list of miscellaneous minor characters
It would make the list more confusing if only characters with articles were excluded, I think?
Would we remove the list on this page as well if we do this? Characters
The CCC has been established to be only one of the stories on SiIvaGunner, so I think it would make sense to both rename that page and to reorganize the content. I don't think doing this would require a vote
It would make the list more confusing if only characters with articles were excluded, I think?
i dont think putting them all in one big table would work the best then one page with two tables? things with articles vs things we won't be giving articles?
Would we remove the list on this page as well if we do this? Characters
like im okay with the idea, but i think instead of creating a new page we should just repurpose this one
i dont think putting them all in one big table would work the best then one page with two tables? things with articles vs things we won't be giving articles?
The SiIvaGunner channel has since made an effort to officially designate large swaths of content as official lore that previously wasn't (Stories besides ours playlist), so I don't know if it makes sense to indiscriminately include, like, Jimmy Neutron in PRESENTATION ANNOUNCEMENT, which isn't included in any lore playlists at the moment.
The SiIvaGunner channel has since made an effort to officially designate large swaths of content as official lore that previously wasn't (Stories besides ours playlist), so I don't know if it makes sense to indiscriminately include, like, Jimmy Neutron in PRESENTATION ANNOUNCEMENT, which isn't included in any lore playlists at the moment.
yeah i feel like this proposal is just recreating this page
That page is only really focused on the CCC, with a brief mention of airth. I think it makes sense that the proposed content isn't for this page and the "Characters" page would be much better off with a name change to "CCC Charaters" or something and cutting airth's section.
That page is only really focused on the CCC, with a brief mention of airth. I think it makes sense that the proposed content isn't for this page and the "Characters" page would be much better off with a name change to "CCC Charaters" or something and cutting airth's section.
I think it would make sense to include it since it does appear to have a story
For comparison, on a few occasions the SiIvaFes event media feature cameo appearances of characters and by doing so confirm that they exist in that universe, but they actually do less than some of the characters in "PRESENTATION ANNOUNCEMENT" since they don't move or have lines
(Moot leader note: We'll extend the moot to finish up discussion on this proposal. I'll try to have us end in the next 10-15 minutes)
That page is only really focused on the CCC, with a brief mention of airth. I think it makes sense that the proposed content isn't for this page and the "Characters" page would be much better off with a name change to "CCC Charaters" or something and cutting airth's section.
yeah but it seems like this page was created back when we didnt have that much lore/characters and further attempts to edit it seem to be more in line with what overcast's proposal wants to do
minor/cameo we have no definition right now
Cameo can basically mean the character has no speaking lines and doesn't affect the plot, but if we don't think this is a useful distinction then we can just put them with the minor characters
yeah but it seems like this page was created back when we didnt have that much lore/characters and further attempts to edit it seem to be more in line with what overcast's proposal wants to do
The current "Characters" page should just be moved to "Figment" or "Figments", with the humans and kfad sections removed.
I disagree with trying to turn it into, or make, a non-list character overview page.
Cameo can basically mean the character has no speaking lines and doesn't affect the plot, but if we don't think this is a useful distinction then we can just put them with the minor characters
Cameo can basically mean the character has no speaking lines and doesn't affect the plot, but if we don't think this is a useful distinction then we can just put them with the minor characters
I think characters who aren't named and don't have speaking lines probably wouldn't be included in the list regardless of whether they affect the plot
I would use the SCP agents as an example but I don't remember if they say anything. If they collectively have a name then they could be included anyway
I think characters who aren't named and don't have speaking lines probably wouldn't be included in the list regardless of whether they affect the plot
I would use the SCP agents as an example but I don't remember if they say anything. If they collectively have a name then they could be included anyway
brainrot universe has a lot of characters that have no (official besides external) names and speaking lines but do affect the plot
i dont see an issue with there being no cap for what can be listed? there should be distinctions between minor and cameo yeah but if a video tells a story there shouldnt be a problem mentioning the people in it (if its an obvious big dumb crowd shot (unusual circumstances courtroom, the murder not too nice suspects) just group them in the same section)
brainrot universe has a lot of characters that have no (official besides external) names and speaking lines but do affect the plot
I think we would use the external names in this case, since that would also apply to some of the non-speaking characters in SiIvaFes videos. The idea is just to not force the list to include, like, everyone who appears in a crowd shot
brainrot universe has a lot of characters that have no (official besides external) names and speaking lines but do affect the plot
for omegas at least I don't think it's too hard to derive their official name since it's just what they are with omega tacked on
true. I am just saying that plot relevance/characterization needs to be a part of the definition
Considering the arguments made, I don't think a hard inclusion boundary for unnamed characters needs to be part of the vote text and I think it may be left up to the discretion of editors
true. I am just saying that plot relevance/characterization needs to be a part of the definition
Considering the arguments made, I don't think a hard inclusion boundary for unnamed characters needs to be part of the vote text and I think it may be left up to the discretion of editors
Summarizing the conversation so far: It sounds like we are not opposed to having a list of characters. We're now talking about minor vs. cameo (i.e. how the page should be split up), which characters to include as cameos, and whether to repurpose the pre-existing Character page.
For the purposes of the moot, I think we should define "cameo" with overcast's definition as a start: "Cameo can basically mean the character has no speaking lines and doesn't affect the plot, but if we don't think this is a useful distinction then we can just put them with the minor characters"
It also sounds like we are fine with doing definitions for cameos later.
I think we should move to discuss how to reconcile this page with the existing Character page. (EDIT: typo)
Summarizing the conversation so far: It sounds like we are not opposed to having a list of characters. We're now talking about minor vs. cameo (i.e. how the page should be split up), which characters to include as cameos, and whether to repurpose the pre-existing Character page.
For the purposes of the moot, I think we should define "cameo" with overcast's definition as a start: "Cameo can basically mean the character has no speaking lines and doesn't affect the plot, but if we don't think this is a useful distinction then we can just put them with the minor characters"
It also sounds like we are fine with doing definitions for cameos later.
I think we should move to discuss how to reconcile this page with the existing Character page. (EDIT: typo)
As others mentioned, I think it should be treated for all intents and purposes as "List of CCC characters" from now on and the page can be reworked accordingly. I don't know if there will still be relevant material left for a "Characters" page once that page is moved to "List of CCC characters"
As others mentioned, I think it should be treated for all intents and purposes as "List of CCC characters" from now on and the page can be reworked accordingly. I don't know if there will still be relevant material left for a "Characters" page once that page is moved to "List of CCC characters"
We have "List of minor characters from the SilvaGunner Christmas Comeback Crisis" already. I'm assuming this "List of CCC characters" is a list of "major" CCC characters?
With the existing Character page I agree with turretbot. The page should just minorly reworked into a Figment/CCC specific page instead of being majorly reworked into a general list.
We have "List of minor characters from the SilvaGunner Christmas Comeback Crisis" already. I'm assuming this "List of CCC characters" is a list of "major" CCC characters?
Yeah, I think it would be a bit redundant to have two lists, so maybe it would be better to keep "Characters" at its current location and just transfer the list elements to the new "List of characters"
i dont think we need "list of major characters from X" pages? we can just implement overcast's idea which then lists the major characters anyways
we dont need two pages for ccc characters i think list of ccc characters
Major characters
===Major character=== {{t|Main|Character}}
- blurb
Minor characters
===Minor character===
- fully written analysis
The current "Characters" page should just be moved to "Figment" or "Figments", with the humans and kfad sections removed.
I disagree with trying to turn it into, or make, a non-list character overview page.
We don't need an entire section just to say "Humans are fictionalized in the CCC". It only made sense to have that in the first place because the article was modeled after the Voice's exposition in "Old Times". With there being more information from the ARG now (page has not yet been completely overhauled to account for it at the moment), I don't think the section is really necessary anymore. The only useful part is the one that says a few fictional characters aren't figments, which is of course, still related to figments.
A list of major CCC characters is already present on the CCC story arc page. The SilvaGunner Christmas Comeback Crisis#Major characters
i dont think we need "list of major characters from X" pages? we can just implement overcast's idea which then lists the major characters anyways
if any major character appears in multiple places im assuming there will already be a page dedicated to them
I think it might be a better idea to have character lists for the individual universes. Have them list the major character's first in a table which links to their individual character articles, and then list known minor characters that don't have enough importance to the lore for them to have their own page.
A list of major CCC characters is already present on the CCC story arc page. The SilvaGunner Christmas Comeback Crisis#Major characters
Yeah we can definitely just hit a reset on the current characters page and make it overcast's plan
Some information on the current page is probably still worth keeping, but in a page describing what a "figment" is.
then use the minor character pages as a baseline for now
so something like CCC/halloween/Kfad1/Kfad2 and then any other story arcs or whatever
There seem to be two opinions on the Characters page. One where we convert it into a Figments page, and another where we turn it into "List of characters"
We don't really know what universe some videos are set in
There seem to be two opinions on the Characters page. One where we convert it into a Figments page, and another where we turn it into "List of characters"
Both of these can happen at the same time.
We can cover those on a case-by-case basis
I was responding to Spottygamester's suggestion that we should just have lists of characters for each universe and convert the existing lists of minor characters into those pages
I'm starting to think this topic deservers a longer discussion then what we currently have time for today.
I was responding to Spottygamester's suggestion that we should just have lists of characters for each universe and convert the existing lists of minor characters into those pages
I'm starting to think this topic deservers a longer discussion then what we currently have time for today.
I don't think it is necessarily a problem to have minor character articles in addition to the full list of characters, since some characters are present in multiple universes or not known to be in any specific universes
I would like to see a draft so we can see all these ideas together without ambiguity on the changes
I'm starting to think this topic deservers a longer discussion then what we currently have time for today.
There is some fuzziness in terms of what should / should not be included on the page
I would like to see a draft so we can see all these ideas together without ambiguity on the changes
Are there other things we would want to vote on besides this?
- We should create a "list of characters" which includes all characters who have made speaking or cameo appearances in SiIvaGunner story content (including individual videos that are not connected to the main SiIvaGunner lore). The list should be in the form of a sortable table with the columns "Name", "Origin", "First appearance", "Date [of first appearance]" and "Notes", and should link to other articles that have more information about particular characters.
- (addendum) We should split the list of characters into 3 tables for major, minor and cameo appearances
- (addendum) We should move the tables from the existing "Characters" page to the list of characters
We have yet to fully address how to reconcile the different CCC pages with lists of characters (i.e. "list of minor ccc characters" and the list on the CCC article)
I think there is also ambiguity on whether we would transform the Characters page completely into "list of characters", or have "Characters" and "List of characters" exist separately. I have assumed we have been talking about the former, though
We have yet to fully address how to reconcile the different CCC pages with lists of characters (i.e. "list of minor ccc characters" and the list on the CCC article)
I don't really think it needs to be voted on, since it is clear that those pages will not affect the content of the list of characters (where each character will be listed once by the video that they first appeared in)
I think there is also ambiguity on whether we would transform the Characters page completely into "list of characters", or have "Characters" and "List of characters" exist separately. I have assumed we have been talking about the former, though
I think if there isn't enough content in Characters once it's restructured it could be merged with the list, but this wouldn't actually affect the main content of the list page and I would be fine with keeping it as a separate page for now
We should not have an article under Characters, it should be redirected to the list. However, we should probably move the page itself to Figments and then create the redirect after, to make the history of the list and figment pages more logical
I don't mind it being part of the vote but I don't know if it's necessary to specify exactly what happens to this page since it won't affect the content of the list
We should not have an article under Characters, it should be redirected to the list. However, we should probably move the page itself to Figments and then create the redirect after, to make the history of the list and figment pages more logical
idk. i feel like Characters (if we're going with overcast's idea) is still a good name for the page. the current contents being repurposed to Figments is okay i suppose but also makes the Characters name seem more consistent to me
Figments only exist in the central canon continuum, and a general overview of characters would be better provided in the list format as proposed, rather than trying to make general statements about them
We're now at 2 hours of the moot. I'm going to make the executive decision to table this discussion until next moot, since there are still unresolved questions. That should be enough time to make a draft and discuss changes off-moot.
overcast07 , we can discuss off-moot what moot times you can make and whether you would like a representative to discuss on your behalf.
Figments only exist in the central canon continuum, and a general overview of characters would be better provided in the list format as proposed, rather than trying to make general statements about them
im not arguing against the list format; im okay with it. im talking about the name of the page; i think Characters fits better and is more consistent with other pages (and the possibly new FIgments page)
If the characters/figments page is going to be involved I would prefer to not be the person drafting the proposal or arguing for it since I'm not really that familiar with the existing pages (as you can tell by the fact that I didn't include them in the initial proposal)
If there's nothing else, that'll be the end of the moot today. Thank you all for the productive discussion.