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SiIvaGunner Wiki:Moot/Log 2024 July 20

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  • 22:58: Minindo: Setting this thread up.
  • 22:58: Rickhenrique: Heyo
  • 22:58: Minindo: Will wait for people to join
  • 22:58: AlphaMaleMobbs: 👋
  • 22:59: Minindo: (I'll wait just a few minutes, anyway. We will start shortly after the hour)
  • 22:59: Spottygamester: Won't be saying much during this one, but I'll be looking in here from time to time.
  • 22:59: Mick the Squirrel: ਸਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ
  • 22:59: Pokemonfreak777: hello
  • 22:59: Airy342: in toby fox voice Hey guys!
  • 22:59: Minindo: I messaged moot presenters ahead of time, so everyone who knows they can make it has declared that
  • 23:00: Arthur10123: howdy!
  • 23:00: Minindo: (I'll just ping @ZachHasArrived and @TurretBot ahead of time to get them into the thread)
  • 23:00: Minindo: All right, here's today's agenda:

Overcast07 -- "Rips featuring" categories for TV shows should be split up if the theme song is the most commonly used source, so that information on the wiki can be organized more sensibly. Specifically, Inspector Gadget, The Simpsons, Family Guy and The Nutshack all have theme songs with well over 25 uses, but each theme song is basically categorized as though it is the show itself, rather than a specific composition, and uses of the theme songs themselves aren't listed anywhere on the wiki. It would make more sense if the theme songs just had their own categories. Note: This proposal was discussed during the July 13 moot, but it was not voted on. A sub-topic was voted on instead. Mick --- restructure composer navigation Mick --- Create a meme article and category for Nicolas Cage User:Mick the Squirrel/Rips featuring Nicolas Cage Rickhenrique - Create a meme article and category for MARIO BROTHERS MOVIE User:Rickhenrique/MARIO BROTHERS MOVIE by Maerwynn (see also: Draft category User:Rickhenrique/MARIO BROTHERS MOVIE category and Google Sheet [1] ZachHasArrived - Remove the "uploads" section from the King for a Day {{KfaDTournamentNav}} and the King for Another Day {{KfADTournamentNav}} navboxes. TurretBot - embed YouTube videos on all rip and video pages using either this User:TurretBot/Snowball Park (Beta Mix) - Super Mario 3D World or this [2] layout ThisGreenDingo is unable to attend today and doesn't wish for their topics to be presented. overcast "will not be trying to attend this week but [they] may try to find someone to present in [their] absence", so I'll be open to anyone showing up who may present for them. This moot should last between 59 and 90 minutes.

  • 23:01: Minindo: Anyone open to present for @overcast's topic?
  • 23:01: Minindo: Well, that can happen at any time later if nobody is around for it right now.
  • 23:02: Pokemonfreak777: i think it might be better to wait for overcast to present it at a later date
  • 23:02: Minindo: Yeah, I'll move onto @Mick 's first topic:

restructure composer navigation Mick, you have the floor

  • 23:03: Mick the Squirrel: warning in advance: mucho texto
  • 23:03: Minindo: All good. We like thoroughness
  • 23:03: Mick the Squirrel: Proposal: We do not need any composer navboxes (besides psy), we should replace them with a list. Note: Although this proposal is multi-faceted, it is still meant to be one coherent proposal.
  • 23:03: Mick the Squirrel:

part 1: composer navboxes suck There is an evident need and want to track video game composers on the wiki. Contrary to video games by company, this is a direct and efficient way of interfacing with the media SiIvaGunner uploads. VGM composers aren't often treated on the same level as mainstream artists, and editors want to catalog all the games they composed for. There is nothing wrong with that.

The issue is they don't work as navboxes.

1.1: they aren't "series", they are people They don't fit the definition of a series navbox, intended for actual connected series of media or brands. Yoko Shimomura, Hideki Naganuma, Toby Fox, and Tim Follin are people. They contribute to series, but they aren't series within themselves. PSY, while still a person, is a celebrity with a brand of music named after himself, so he is technically his own "series". also his navbox is helpful for event navigation

1.2 the three biggest current ones are repetitive to already existing series navboxes yoko shimomura — kingdom hearts, mario rpgs, misc hideki naganuma — jet set radio, misc (wasn't this created because a jet set radio navbox didn't qualify yet? it does now). toby fox — the undertale and homestuck navboxes with "other" slapped on. come on man.

Imagine if koji kondo had a silly public personality people could parasocially connect with. Do you really want a second mario navbox with bits of zelda and miscellaneous other games shoved in? I could maybe forgive toby's if it gutted all the undertale and homestuck (with a simple "see also" to a smaller navbox, like mario does for donkey kong and yoshi) and only contained the "others", but as it is now, it's just more toby worship.

The only boxes not falling into this pattern are Tim Follin — Dabbles in various games, he's chill. Everyone loves Pictionary, Solstice, and Plok; but there is nothing tying them together except for him. PSY — again he is his own brand

1.3 the proposal system sucks SiIvaGunner Wiki:Content policy#Composers 'In general, navboxes that focus on specific composers and bands are prohibited from being made. However, there are a few exceptions to this rule that are listed below: [list] All exceptions to this rule can only be decided on during moots. If you would like to see a specific composer or band have a navbox on the wiki, please propose it as a moot topic first. Any navboxes of this type that are made without a proposal will be deleted without warning.

1.3.1: Stated earlier that most of these should not be special "exceptions" because other navboxes serve their purpose

1.3.2: We really have notability rules for navboxes? Tell me, what deep ties do Harvest Moon, or Ratchet & Clank, or Cool Math Games have towards the essence of SiIvaGunner? It is not worth turning this into another meme criteria argument. Series navboxes should not be discriminated based on notability, just have enough playlists or memes under your belt and you're golden.

  • 23:04: Mick the Squirrel: The only reason theres a proposal system at all is because everybody hates Yuzo Koshiro (he's not a popular composer). SiIvaGunner Wiki:Moot/Log 2023 August 05 (ctrl-f "so during the july 2022 moot" for the start) I'm not going to lie and say I know off the top of my head or care what this guy composes for, but the very fact that he creates music (that siiva has acknowledged) is justification for him being documented in some form. The Yuzo Koshiro navbox existed because at least one person cared enough to catalog what he made, deleting him did nothing but remove valuable info catalogued in one place. Everything here is listed so any hypothetical reader can find a catalog of all SiIvaGunner references to their favorite piece of media or composer.

So: Moderated — selective, subjective, and what has been approved for the most part sucks Include EVERYBODY — navbox bloat Include NOBODY — no navigation info

Series navboxes are not a correct fit for listing the works of VGM composers.

part 2: games by composer This is why I wanted to propose both of these together. I don't want to tear down the navboxes and provide no alternative. The next best option to track as many VGM composers indiscriminately in bulk would be a list. Specifically, a List of games by composer. Or List of playlists by composer? We'll think about it. Demo page: User:Mick the Squirrel/Media by composer

We already have rips sorted by game, we already have rips sorted by non-VGM composer, so this would be the next logical step in complete ease of navigation. Implementation is simple: set the page live and let it naturally be added to (Treat the listing format like you would a navbox, except with bullets and commas for platform and / or series. Whichever makes more sense in each case). cross-link composers using a new Template:F function from the game categories.

pedantics:

“Why not place them on Songs Featured In Rips?” - That would bloat the list overall. Too many essentially empty sections that only list categories. Though if this proposal is rejected for being too complicated it is the second best solution, all artists would be getting tracked. "What about when the artist is listed in the description, but all the rips are switcheroos that never actually feature their music [Manami Matsumae and Ippo Yamada in relation to Mighty No. 9]?" — Unfortunate for the fans reading, but list it anyway. More often than not this shouldn't be an issue. If anything they should take it as motivation to actually rip their tracks. "What about when an artist is credited for a game within a group of people [in either the vid description or wikipedia copy pasted onto the wiki game category], but their songs specifically are never ripped?" — Don't list them. "What about when an artist is credited for a game as a joke [Nobuo Uematsu in relation to Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden; Brad Buxer, Cirocco Jones, Bobby Brooks, Darryl Ross, Geoff Grace, Doug Grigsby, Sachio Ogawa, Tatsuyuki Maeda, Tomonori Sawada, Masayuki Nagao, Miyoko Takaoka, Masanori Hikichi, Jun Senoue, and Howard Drossin in relation to Michael Jackson's Moonwalker; all fake games]?" — List them but Indicate that it's a joke in parentheses next to the game, or include it under a "joke" bullet.

"What about when the artist doesn't exist at all [Schtoph-Putin Kneckoparah and Ownyoresteemprovilez Yumohreons in relation to Nekopara Vol. 1]?" — For rules of funny I would say yes, but again, indicate under the entire section itself that it's a joke. "What about when non-vgm music is liscensed for reuse in a video game [Sicko Mode and Mo Bamba in relation to NBA 2k19, Tonight, Tonight in relation to Rock Band 3], or unofficially reused / remixed for a fangame [Quazar of Sanxion and Quad City DJs in relation to Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden]?" - If a non-vgm artist, keep it as it is: "related playlists" / "for rips of the track". If vgm artist, note it under a "reused fan works" bullet.

All of these points are open for debate, though.

"What about when the artist also has original music / has composed for other media [Toby Fox, Hiroyuki Sawano when we eventually delete his meme category]?" — ...

part 3: the weird part of the proposal We have a few options in response to that question. 1: List them on both pages connected by a "for this artist's solo works / VG compositions, see the losfir / logbc", ignore other media 2: Store them exclusively on the LOSFIR, ignore other media 3: Expand the scope of the page to all media instead of just video games. ...should we track more than video games using this list?

This is why the demo page is called "list of rips referencing media". Would this be a good idea, or complicate things further? Goes just how logbc would go, link to rips referencing media (or whatever it's called at this point) instead of playlists. Questions about where to put things? see the above pedantics section Adam Sandler - Eight Crazy Nights, They Might Be Giants Malcom in the Middle, etc. That would end up making an extra page to navigate through, though. Are there more vgm composers on this wiki than general media composers? Does general media not warrant a composer list? I noticed that rips referencing anime really likes crediting who composed each track. Should that be the standard for joke listing pages so that all of these cases can be linked back to?

extra point by Summit i wanted to share I once thought of a much simpler solution, which would just be to add the category/ies "Games scored by X" where X is the composer according to the Game infobox (that way it can easily be made automatically or at the very least populated by a bot) to pages categorized under "Playlist". There would be a certain amount of false positives for the reasons you listed above but most of it would be easier to clean up manually than to create everything manually from scratch If done automatically by the Game template then there could be a switch to not categorize automatically to add the proper category manually (e.g. for Nobuo Uematsu in relation to Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden)

conclusion To conclude, what should be voted on and discussed: 1: Removal of composer navboxes (besides PSY). 2: Creating a list of composers. 3: Deciding on if should it be exclusive to vgm composers or encapsulate all media composers.

  • 23:06: Mick the Squirrel: that is all. thoughts?
  • 23:06: Minindo: Okay, thank you for the analysis but for future reference this would be great as a userpage that we could read ahead of the moot. I'll still give everyone, let's say 4 minutes to read this?
  • 23:06: Rickhenrique: Yeah likely a bit more
  • 23:06: Rickhenrique: Wasnt expecting that much text
  • 23:07: Mick the Squirrel: i do have a userpage version but it is old and unrevised

User:Mick the Squirrel/stuff#savbox series koji kondom

  • 23:07: Minindo: We have to keep things going, so I don't want to pause for too long
  • 23:07: Minindo: I'll be reading and listing my opinion for each main numbered point, I suggest others do the same
  • 23:14: Rickhenrique: So I quite read all, and I can agreed that should be the best those navboxes being removed that isnt Tom or PSY navbox

About the third thing, one thing will say: If the artist for it actually worked for the advertised game would count, if not, then should be only in their lists rips featuring

  • 23:15: Rickhenrique: Wont be counting if their songs appeared in, like Just Dance for example
  • 23:15: Minindo: My opinions

1.1: they aren't "series", they are people - I agree that these composers are not inherently brands due to not being celebrities (although it's a bit borderline for Toby Fox, but I understand what you mean)

1.2 the three biggest current ones are repetitive to already existing series navboxes - I agree. I'm thinking about your point about Tim Follin, though: "Everyone loves Pictionary, Solstice, and Plok; but there is nothing tying them together except for him." Personally, I think a Tim Follin navbox (or some form of navigation) makes sense, as he has a specific, well-regarded style of composing that ties these very unrelated games together. But let's see the rest of the proposal

1.3 the proposal system sucks - I'm confused what you mean by "We really have notability rules for navboxes". As far as I can see there aren't any rules for composer navboxes apart from that they have to be approved in a moot? I'm probably wrong, please let me know

part 2: games by composer: This is the part I'm the most supportive of. I like this regardless if we get rid of the composer navboxes. It's useful and the function calling composers from the game categories is smart. I wonder if we can automate it further to that extent. Noting that "extra point by Summit i wanted to share"

part 3: the weird part of the proposal: "...should we track more than video games using this list?" Doubtful. Just take it to List of songs featured in rips or List of rips referencing media, imo.

  • 23:18: TurretBot: Hi. I don't think making a list is a good idea. I do think categorizing is a good idea, i.e. what Summit said. However, apparently it was decided in a past moot to not categorize by Platform, and I don't think it makes sense logically to say that we should categorize by one part of the video description and not the other part of it.

Also, small change of plans due to irl @minindo, I won't be able to present my moot topic, if we actually make it to it.

  • 23:18: Minindo: Noted, that's fine
  • 23:19: Minindo: Do you have time to explain why you don't think making a list is a good idea?
  • 23:19: Rickhenrique: Lets an comparasion for example:

The Living Tombstone: has worked on a game that the SiIvaGunner team ripped before, I wont remembered, but it's included on the category of said composer. this SHOULD count, since he participated. Kevin MacLeod: the only media (if we count of what I will mention) that Kevin worked is BFDIA, expecifically on the upcoming album released by them. Other than that, the medias that features his songs shouldnt count since he didnt worked, his songs are copyright free afterall.

  • 23:19: Mick the Squirrel: 1.3 - my point was there shouldn't be any need for proposing tracking media via navboxes, it's worrying and i didn't want situations like deleting Yuzo to be a pattern
  • 23:20: Minindo: Right, you're saying the deletion of the Yuzo Koshiro navbox for notability basically set a precedent that there are notability standards for composer navboxes
  • 23:20: Rickhenrique: Also yeah, that on what turret said, it would be off too
  • 23:20: Pokemonfreak777: gonna be honest theres a lot i dont really agree with here, but i dont really know what to say other than i disagree. so ill just list points where i can (maybe) say something

1.1. i suppose that is true, but like didnt you want to change navboxes to not use series anyways? this shouldnt really matter then 1.3. this point just seems like a rant about the current system rather than an actual problem. we already have a notability problem with regular series navboxes. allowing any composer with 5 games under their belt without approval is just gonna cause even more problems. this looks basically like the video games by company page that you wanted to axe in the last moot. i dont see how this is better.

theres other parts about this that i dont really like but im not sure how to verbalize it

  • 23:21: Mick the Squirrel: don't think ive read that one, but video game platforms are less related to the concept of siiva (besides specific varieties of ripping) than the composers of the music you are listening to.
  • 23:23: TurretBot: it would be more difficult to maintain than a category. also it probably have to be split into like 6 subpages, which significantly neuters the searchability
  • 23:23: Mick the Squirrel: 1.1 - yeah kinda.

1.3 - my point is that managing composers through navboxes is a bad idea in general if there is a need to set notability rules for it. navboxes should have stricter rules (don't slap them in with the entire smash series, crossovers should be relevant to the category page, etc. but thats a different topic), but it should be a fully unrestricted process to create them. 2 - again, companies are too far removed from the concept of music navigation. musicians are not.

  • 23:25: Minindo: Does anyone know feasible Summit's idea would be in terms of programming? It's where initial "Games scored by X" categories are applied automatically (according to the Game infobox) once by a bot, and then cleaned up manually.
  • 23:26: Mick the Squirrel: categories would be more difficult to manage than a list, you can't see what the pages contain until you click. splitting VGM composers by letter is more manageable than that.
  • 23:29: TurretBot: It's easier because it's already part of the page you're editing when a category page is created/updated
  • 23:29: Pokemonfreak777: honestly even if we decide to remove composer navboxes i would argue that we still need to set notability rules for whatever form we end up deciding on. otherwise we would end up with an even more redundant list that would include composers that worked on 1 game making it redundant with the actual game's category page.

on a side note, i think notability rules should also be applied to regular series navboxes but that might be a different topic

  • 23:30: Minindo: @Mick You said "Although this proposal is multi-faceted, it is still meant to be one coherent proposal".

Would this be: "We will remove the current composer navboxes (except for PSY) and create a list of video game music composers." I'm not putting this up for a vote just yet because it seems we're divided on most of what you proposed

  • 23:31: Rickhenrique: Oh yeah theres the Tom Follin one too, we remove this one too?
  • 23:32: Minindo: I would like to give you the opportunity to argue your point on any remaining thoughts people have
  • 23:32: Mick the Squirrel: im trying to respond timely to everything just gimme a sec
  • 23:32: Minindo: I'd rather we didn't remove the Tim Follin one personally as I find it useful for the reason I stated above, but I understand that removing navboxes for VGM composers wouldn't make exceptions and that's the point
  • 23:33: Minindo: Yeah no problem
  • 23:33: Mick the Squirrel: there are normal composers with one rip under their belt and we still list them.
  • 23:34: Mick the Squirrel: two votes, one for removing navboxes and the other for the list. if the first one is agreed upon something needs to replace it.
  • 23:34: Minindo: understood
  • 23:34: Mick the Squirrel: if the list page is agreed to be implemented, yes. if opposed i'd be in favor of keeping him and psy only.
  • 23:35: Rickhenrique: Got it
  • 23:35: TurretBot: What notability guideline makes sense for a navbox?
  • 23:35: Rickhenrique: A navbox will be made after an expecific amount of media relate to it
  • 23:35: Mick the Squirrel:

have 5 links to pages that actually contain rips relevant to your franchise

  • 23:36: Rickhenrique: That
  • 23:36: Mick the Squirrel: im thinking about singular games with lots of freqrips that look weird though
  • 23:36: TurretBot: Just to be clear, unless the guideline also prohibits the creation of "see also" sections, removing navboxes will probably just lead to the addition of see also sections that contain the same links but looks less pretty
  • 23:37: Pokemonfreak777: yes cuz those are rips that are (presumably) on the list of rips referencing media or something; collecting them there makes sense. this is a list of games that would only be useful really if a lot of entries are collected together (which means composers with one game dont really do anything for the list and make it more bloated, a problem you stated as well)
  • 23:37: Mick the Squirrel: if the list is implemented the infobox composer names will be {{F}} linked, no see also necessary.
  • 23:37: TurretBot: im only talking about cutting series
  • 23:38: Mick the Squirrel: do you want to decrease it to 4?

5 is a good number to stop at imo before it gets noticeably weird to look at.

  • 23:38: TurretBot: this is based solely on the fact that series without enough for a navbox but with more than 1 usually have them
  • 23:40: Mick the Squirrel: one-composers not being tracked would make more of an issue in the long run. if nobody is aware that a previous game was ripped it is unlikely that it would be found later and added once it reaches whatever "criteria" we would have in mind.
  • 23:41: Mick the Squirrel: and at that point someone would likely be tracking them on a subpage anyway, just put it all together.
  • 23:42: Mick the Squirrel: more than 1 what?
  • 23:42: Mick the Squirrel: im getting a cup of water hold on
  • 23:45: Minindo: (Not a vote, don't use the emotes) I'd like to just check who, at this moment, supports the removal of the navboxes and also who favors a list over a set of categories (or not)
  • 23:45: Mick the Squirrel: the general series navbox notability discussion should probably be saved for another time
  • 23:46: Minindo: I agree
  • 23:46: TurretBot: playlist
  • 23:46: Rickhenrique: Support on the first, neutral on the second
  • 23:46: TurretBot: support of the first, category
  • 23:46: Pokemonfreak777: im still pretty strongly against this, but i dont really have anymore to say
  • 23:48: Mick the Squirrel: so where should tim follin be moved
  • 23:49: Rickhenrique: If the list isnt appliadable, then should be just in the navbox really, it isnt so much of a bad take in it
  • 23:50: TurretBot: Well, pokemonfreak has previously stated that Koji Kondo should have a section on the (soon to be called) list of rips referencing musicians

⁠siiva-discussion⁠

  • 23:51: Rickhenrique: Yeah that should be a enough thing
  • 23:52: Mick the Squirrel: so do you all want to add every vgm and media composer there then
  • 23:52: Rickhenrique: Oh boy, theres that
  • 23:52: TurretBot: i suppose
  • 23:52: Rickhenrique: Honestly that's...would be really full a lot
  • 23:52: Minindo: I think if a list were to be made from this discussion, it would be better as vgm exclusive, but I'm not sure that I prefer a list over the categories anyway
  • 23:52: Rickhenrique: Like a lot of bytes of sections for to have "see also" in it
  • 23:53: Rickhenrique: I mean, it would be a lot better anyways
  • 23:53: Mick the Squirrel: i dont like the see alsos when theyre that big, moving them to one new page with a new format would be the best solution
  • 23:55: Mick the Squirrel: and categories would require numerical notability rules
  • 23:55: Rickhenrique: Hey uh, while it's fine to continue, weve been here for minutes
  • 23:55: Minindo: We have been on this topic for nearly an hour, yes
  • 23:55: Mick the Squirrel: well i mean if a bot is managing it there should be some way to rectify this
  • 23:55: AlphaMaleMobbs: yeah this has taken up half of the moot lol
  • 23:56: Mick the Squirrel: i wanted to hear more on the technical side of this actually
  • 23:56: Mick the Squirrel: if a subject warrants a long discussion, it warrants a long discussion
  • 23:56: Mick the Squirrel: patience
  • 23:56: TurretBot: it probably makes more sense to put them in the list that has other musicians than to create a list that isn't categorically based in anything siivagunner related, except that it would make the media lists all obsolete except for non music references (which arguably isn't nonsensical though) and may create an awkward unknown composer section
  • 23:57: AlphaMaleMobbs: no complaints. jst a view. continue this topic as long as you have to.
  • 23:57: AlphaMaleMobbs: WarioThumbsUp
  • 23:58: AlphaMaleMobbs: (even if it ends up being discussed in wiki general)
  • 23:59: Mick the Squirrel: this idea worries me
  • 23:59: Pokemonfreak777: it shouldnt take up the entire moot though. other people have topics too. i would honestly wrap this up soon
  • 23:59: Rickhenrique: ^^^^
  • 23:59: Minindo: Yeah, I don't have infinite time. This moot can only reasonably last another half hour at the most
  • 0:00: Mick the Squirrel: i dont like taking up the entire moot but voting on it just because people are tired is an unsatisfying way to end it

we can save the rest of it it for later if people want that

  • 0:01: Mick the Squirrel: like i can move it to the end of the current moot list
  • 0:01: Minindo: You could bring further discussion to ⁠wiki-general, and then the next moot people can vote after they've fully discussed it and weighed the options
  • 0:01: Pokemonfreak777: postponing the vote is fine if thats what you want, but based on the current status, i think most people already have decided what side theyre on
  • 0:01: Pokemonfreak777: but its up to you
  • 0:01: Minindo: What would you prefer Mick?
  • 0:01: Mick the Squirrel: hmm
  • 0:02: Mick the Squirrel: so everyone who has something to say has said something right?
  • 0:02: Mick the Squirrel: if that is the case, vote
  • 0:03: Minindo: Because of the nature of this topic, I'm going to give you preview what I have currently for vote statements, does this work?
"We will remove the current composer navboxes (except for PSY)."
"We will create a list of video game music composers." (Please vote "oppose" if you prefer a set of categories; if this list vote does not pass, creating categories will be voted on.)
"We will create categories for video game music composers in the format 'Games scored by X'."
  • 0:03: Mick the Squirrel: yes.
  • 0:04: Mick the Squirrel: the second two will need further discussion, though (if they are even approved of)
  • 0:04: Minindo: Right, should also note the second one is also contingent on the first one being approved
  • 0:04: Minindo: Any last thoughts before we vote?
  • 0:04: Pokemonfreak777: so how many statements are we voting on (aka what format are we voting)
  • 0:05: Minindo: We're voting on the first statement, and if it's approved we vote on the second. If the second is rejected, we vote on the third.
  • 0:05: Pokemonfreak777: ok
  • 0:05: Mick the Squirrel: yep
  • 0:05: Minindo: Voting on:
"We will remove the current composer navboxes (except for PSY)."

Vote concludes 4-2-1

  • 0:09: Minindo: That's just about enough to move onto the next vote
  • 0:09: Minindo: Voting on:
"We will create a list of video game music composers." (Please vote "oppose" if you prefer a set of categories; if this list vote does not pass, creating categories will be voted on.)
====

Vote concludes 3-1-3

  • 0:11: Minindo: Neither passes. Because the creation of categories is the other option, let's vote on that and see what the result is
  • 0:12: Minindo: Voting on:
"We will create categories for video game music composers in the format 'Games scored by X' (using automation as an initial base)."
====

Vote concludes 5-1-1

  • 0:15: Minindo: The proposal has passed. We will implement these:
"We will remove the current composer navboxes (except for PSY)."
"We will create categories for video game music composers in the format 'Games scored by X' (using automation as an initial base)."

I expect further ⁠wiki-general discussion later

  • 0:15: Mick the Squirrel: close enough to my vision, sure
  • 0:16: Minindo: @Mick you now have the floor for this topic, I expect it to be a simpler and shorter discussion

Mick --- Create a meme article and category for Nicolas Cage User:Mick the Squirrel/Rips featuring Nicolas Cage SiIvaGunner Wiki Rips featuring Nicolas Cage Ballad of the Wind Fish (OST Version) - The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (track title) Scream: Clock Town, Second Day (OST Version) - The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Southern Swamp (OST... Rips featuring Nicolas Cage

  • 0:16: Mick the Squirrel: yep
  • 0:17: Mick the Squirrel: Nicolas Cage is a notable source on the SiIvaGunner channel, worthy of being documented and cataloged via a meme article and category.

We are all aware of the meme conundrum, which is even further complicated by the current subset of "multisource" sources. Although, still, there are no rules set in stone, I believe the criteria this does meet exemplifies our common interests when assigning a source this status.

Nicolas Cage as a source almost always has intentional theming. There are 140+ (Yes numbers do still have some importance when deciding these, they just shouldn't be the only deciding factor or as low as 25) featuring Nic’s voice clips (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9DFnrgxHR47xlw9zN51hUoaHa93tRorq — though this playlist is missing a handful), and they almost always are YTPMVs of The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, referencing The Legend of Cage: Beneath the Mask mod by Criken. There are a handful of rips that don’t relate to Majora at all, but it wouldn’t be worth cutting them off. Who knows, hopefully this joke expands beyond this one game like Totinos or Kazoo.

Ripper endorsement May 1, 2024: ⁠wiki-general⁠ — A discussion about Nicolas Cage being a multisource meme was started by GramBam36, and outright stated that it should be a multisource joke later ⁠wiki-general⁠.

June 2, 2024: List of rips referencing media/Video games?oldid=595604#The Legend of Cage: Beneath the Mask — list added by Ashley with the edit summary "Added the 120+ rips referencing The Legend of Cage: Beneath the Mask". Seems like a nudge.

The subsource dispersion warrants multisource categorization The meme is the combination of the sources, a cohesive idea. Not The Bees is obviously the "mascot" of the joke, but there is a fairly even dispersion between all of the big sample sources, none of them warrant their own separate article or category. This entire proposal mainly exists to allow documentation of all the films together, as represented in my draft article: User:Mick the Squirrel/Rips featuring Nicolas Cage

page outline: [infobox + image (dont nab the wikipedia one, use him screaming in the bee bag or doing the o rly vampire face.)]

[Intro]

Background

[Actor in several films of varying quality] [Legend of cage mod]

On SiIvaGunner / In rips

[first two rips were snow halation (in-game version) and the pain mgs3 as generic screaming noises] [Ctrl-X the meat of this page from the majora category] [compare to totinos and kazoos somewhere] [outside of majora, he is still used sparingly in rips] (navbox series zelda)


Thoughts?

I was gonna say before that should somehow have a page due to the event and how it was referenced more after the event

  • 0:18: Minindo: I agree with this proposal but I don't think the "Ripper endorsement" part helps your case. Memes should be derived from what the channel publishes, not what individual rippers have to say (unless they're arguing on a basis of the channel's activities, then of course, just as anyone can)
  • 0:18: Rickhenrique: So I support with this one
  • 0:18: Mick the Squirrel: noted
  • 0:20: Minindo: I agree with "The subsource dispersion warrants multisource categorization". These are very granular sources used only in the Cage context where it just doesn't make sense to give them individual categories.

This also helps the pages on rips with joke lines like this: Various clips of Nicolas Cage are pitch-shifted and mashed up with the advertised track. You could hyperlink "Various clips of Nicolas Cage" to the list on Rips featuring Nicolas Cage, which you have a promising draft for.

  • 0:21: Pokemonfreak777: yeah i agree with nicolas cage being a meme. but i personally think each of the films used could (and should) also qualify as memes (although they would have to be voted in separately from this)
  • 0:21: Rickhenrique: I dont think separated categories would work, but definivelly a collection of Nicolas Cages usages in one would be a better direction
  • 0:21: Mick the Squirrel: dont agree with the hyperlinking thing, readers shouldn't have to do any of the work to find the soruces
  • 0:22: Rickhenrique: Something like...oh boy, Skibidi Toilet and Mr. Incredible Uncanny memes goes
  • 0:22: Mick the Squirrel: there is nothing that stands out about them individually, the most you could say is what the lines themselves mean in the movies
  • 0:22: Minindo: I honestly don't see the point in that, the category for Nicolas Cage would exist to make sure we don't have categories for a bunch of films (where their only use is through Cage clips). The list serves the purpose
  • 0:22: Minindo: That's fair. It'd naturally still link to the page "Nicolas Cage", which is enough
  • 0:22: Mick the Squirrel: yep
  • 0:23: Mick the Squirrel: for fun i might make redirect pages for the films though
  • 0:23: Minindo: Of course I could see an edge case future, where (for example) the theme from the film Raising Arizona becomes a common source used in rips somehow. Then if Raising Arizona becomes a meme, we would include those specific Cage rips in the category. Otherwise, it's not neccessary to make individual categories just for Cage use
  • 0:25: TurretBot: Why is it bad? GramBam is literally responsible for a substantial portion of the rips in question, if Grambam is stating the intent behind the rips' creation, that is literally the best case scenario (we have direct confirmation that something was being pushed here; like, i guess you can say "it's obvious", but that's only in this case)
  • 0:27: Minindo: What I mean is that it shouldn't be on the basis of a particular ripper saying "this is a meme" without evidence, because anyone can do that. I could say that Orbsman is a meme on the siivagunner channel that I've been pushing, but I have no evidence for that so nothing would be done about it.

Gram has evidence for what he's saying anyway, but anyone can see that it's been pushed on the channel (we're generally in agreement that it's a meme so far), so the fact that it's him saying it isn't really relevant to its veracity

  • 0:28: Minindo: We could discuss this subtopic later seperately. I don't think it'd have an effect on this decision
  • 0:28: Rickhenrique: Agreed
  • 0:29: Minindo: Anyone have anything else to say before we vote?
  • 0:29: Minindo: Voting on:

We will create a meme article and category for Nicolas Cage.

====

Vote concludes 6-0-0

  • 0:31: Minindo: The proposal has passed:

"We will create a meme article and category for Nicolas Cage."

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